Yes, all the children have been breastfed & were born entirely naturally. The last 3 were born at home unassisted. 3 were born in a hospital. 3 were home births w midwife assistance. Usually weaning is accomplished by 1 year.
S has been birthing them, getting them to ~1 year old, & then (for all intents & purposes) abandoning them. Yes, she loses interest, but perhaps not in the way you imagine.
The newborn is a ‘trap’ because it give her something to hide behind & an excuse to run away from adults. She holds the baby to ‘protect’ her from the world at large while the babe is ‘helpless’, but, as they become more independent, she is less necessary to their existence & less able to keep them in arms all the time. It doesn’t really have anything to do w her “feeling good” because she spends the entire time complaining about being tied down by the nursing babe & unable to do the fun things she’d like. (Motorcycle dates w me, for example.)
Rather than actually mother them through the transition, she ‘dumps’ the child onto the older kids to transition for her. This, again, started in 2006 & has been repeating w each successive child as they hit key stages at 1, 2, & 3 years of age.
When I’m on a date w D, we spend half the time talking about the kids. When out w S, the kids are the furthest from her mind.
Since D is a professionally trained chef, she does dinner. S wants to pretend that she’s just as good a cook & volunteered for breakfast. 19 years of marriage & 18 years of motherhood have not endowed her w any ability in the kitchen. Half the breakfasts have been inedible. The first admission by S was that she was planning her meals based on her own convenience first w volume, nutrition & edibility all secondary. Just last week, S was in tears as she had to finally admit that she didn’t have a clue what she was doing as she ruined yet another breakfast. It’s not a matter of others’ opinion that hold the key to her transformation, but her own opinion about herself. If she thinks she’s fine, she won’t surrender & allow God to re-work her life.
"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them."
This is true politically, scientifically, & personally. It’s when we admit that the best we can do is ruin our own lives that we can accept that God has the only solution to fix it. Until then, we will keep digging ourselves deeper into the hole. Thus, S is allowed to dig herself deeper, but the effects on the innocent children have been ameliorated by D.
The Biblical definition of love is “doing what’s best for another person regardless of the cost to yourself”. From this, we get 2 antonyms: fear which focuses on the cost (pain) to yourself & selfishness which does what’s best for self regardless of the cost to others. In this case, the thinking S has maintained to create the problem has been entirely self-focused: magnification of fear to become increasingly selfish. The cost:benefit analysis of any decision falls on its face (in her mind) as soon as the equation includes some level of inconvenience, discomfort, or potential to be unesteemed by certain desired people. The appearance of being good is of higher priority than actually being good.
This is why it took ~6 months for S to tell her parents that I had taken a 2nd wife. She knew that we would be reject by them, & it would cause her to lose favor in their eyes. Oddly, we haven’t been ‘in favor’ for years. S’ mother won’t talk to her unless it’s about S leaving us & going back to Colorado. S’ sister still talks w her, but she seems even less capable of handling her own problems. If S were to go back to Mommy’s house, she’d fit in perfectly, but she knows for certain that no one would actually care about her, the children she left behind, or anything else: appearance above all. That’s typical religious people for you.
Therapy? Not really. I had a good friend who was a Master NLP therapist who worked w her for a while. He was the one who first identified her past sexual assault which she denied for years & sometimes still does. Further, S has some empathic traits which was confusing her. She’d feel something but she’s confuse Who was feeling it, What, they were feeling, & How to deal w it. Thus a spiral could be initiated by me coming home grumpy & not saying a word. She feels something, but then spiral with no clue as to why. My friend gave her some good tools to help differentiate between her own vs others’ emotions & what to do vs what to just let go. Sadly, these tools were often ignored. I would have to walk her through the steps, but she refuses that anything was wrong w her natural methods of dealing w her issues. “It’s not possible to be empathic!”
On the other hand, there has been significant improvements in this regard. If she ever accuses me of some action or feeling, I simply ask her, “When?!” It forces her to put her emotions into a time context & separate what happened 20 years ago from what happened 5 minutes ago. She hasn’t had an extended recursive episode as I described since D moved-in. She’s too busy trying to keep up the appearance of being (as D calls it), “Mother of the Year”, but it’s duplicitous. She’s gung-ho when I’m home, but she’s a bump on the couch when I’m gone.
When I got cancer and lost the ability to reproduce, this finally stopped. (I don’t recommend cancer as a solution, however.)
In reverse, I have 9. That is not a cue to rant about global overpopulation or your reasoning for not having any. To answer your inevitable questions:
Yes, I know what causes it. Conversely, your decision to not have children is caused by your decision to be celibate.
No, we don’t have a TV. Given the choice why do so many choose Dave Letterman or “Law & Order” over a naked romp w their spouse?
No, we’re not Catholic or Mormon. Neither are the Duggers. No, we don’t want our own TV show or plan to compete in that way w anyone.
I’m glad to see that your natural sympathy has overridden your erotic desire. That’s the same boat we’re all in. Great sex is a celebration of a relationship that’s in good, working order. To best answer your questions, I need to rearrange the order a bit.
1) “How long has she been struggling? Is this due to you bringing home another woman or something else?”
The length of struggle for S has likely been her whole life though certain moments in her past stand out as milestones in her downward spiral. These moments include being sexually assaulted at age 9 by a female babysitter, her emotional disconnect from her mother, her emotional connection w her father which was interrupted by her mother as ‘shameful’, & her introverted nature which seeks to please people & avoid pain at all costs.
However, this was all under the radar for the first 10 years of our marriage since many others have had similar background or worse & managed to deal w their issues & get their daily work done.
In Oct 2005, I started working in the oilfield which was a 2 weeks on (New Mexico) / 2 weeks off (@ her parents’ house in Colorado) situation while she was pregnant w #5. Up to this point, she had been putting in effort to appear to be a wife & mother who cared.
In Dec 2005, we began our ‘But what does the Bible really say’ conversation. I started reading & studying. In Feb 2006, #5 was born (only birth I missed), & she gave up trying. She began to spend increasingly more time locked away in her room while I was gone and less & less time w the children except for the newborn. She was increasingly distant from everyone. In April 2006, my study was completed, & I announced my desire for a 2nd wife. In a sense, it pushed her farther off into the deep end.
In May 2006, I bought a minivan to replace my aging car & started taking the entire family to work w me. I extended my rotation to 3 weeks on / 1 week off, & we stayed in various hotels for the rest of year. My week off was a family vacation that we used to explore various cities between work & her parents’ house. Tight quarters but both helpful & necessary.
Right after I made my announcement to her, I had a ‘perfect nightmare’ that showed me my fears & that I didn’t have the relationship w God that I ought. I pursued it w dogged determination. It was the most grueling & painful 3 months of my life. I ripped my insides apart to root every fear out: exposed, cut off, & discarded. In every aspect of my life, I wanted to feel what God felt in a given scenario: anger, sadness, or happiness. Naturally, we often get it backwards: angry instead of sad, sad instead of happy, happy instead of angry, etc. W the entire Bible fresh in my mind, I had hundreds of verses to support the emotional position for many scenarios. After a while, it was almost child’s play to logically bring up the necessary verse for the scenario & then feel in accordance w the verse.
Most ‘religious’ people feel first then try to find a verse to justify it. Non-religious people go into their full carnal self & indulge their feelings only to consider verses afterward as to whether their feelings & associated actions were right or not & then go back & try to make amends for mistakes made while out of control.
By contrast, S seemed to not care whether Scripture said X should be responded to w happy, sad, or angry. She felt. Ride her feelings like a roller coaster that never ended. &, w no forgiveness or forgetfulness, one feeling today would lead her into a perpetual motion machine of a lifetime of past emotions in a rapidly descending spiral of self-destruction.
“What’s for dinner?”
“Why ask me for dinner when u never eat it? You aren’t hungry when u get home. U hate my dinners. U didn’t like that meal I made back in 1997. U hate me. My mother hated me. Dad tried to like me, but when I burned the steak when I was 12, he was just saying that he liked it that way. My 1st grade teacher was so shallow. She hated me also, & marked my papers down for spite. One drawing was of dinner. She marked it as wrong since she didn’t like red chicken legs. I tried to explain they were BBQ, but she didn’t care. U don’t care either…”
On more than one occasion such a spiral was instigated by a misunderstood word. These spiral were self-feeding & could last for days or weeks. 2007 - 2012 included several job changes & state moves. S’ ‘depression’ was in check while I was home, but every time I left for work (8 hrs or 5 days), she would retreat into melodrama & leave the kids to fend for themselves. Her bobbing to the surface for air was more natural buoyancy & less & less deliberate fight. From 2006 (or before), S became a sex addict. The only way she could feel anything resembling happiness was when she orgasmed. The only time she orgasmed was w me. She started craving it 2 & 3 times a day when I was home. I liked the extra attention but left each session feeling used. Like other addictions, the high she felt was less high & shorter lasting w each hit. It was lots of sex between us, but it wasn’t great sex at all.
2) “What are you doing to help S?”
The short answer is polygyny.
Throughout this entire time S & I talked. These were good conversations. I recommend them, even for couples who never do add a third. If the wife is thinking of her role as wife ‘properly’ a 2nd wife is not a negative but a positive. A 2nd husband would be insupportable. Likewise, for the husband, a 2nd wife should be a positive idea while a 2nd husband would be unwelcome. This all comes down to role fulfillment. The husband is to be the leader / master & the wife his submissive ‘servant’. If he’s leading in the right way, she will naturally want to submit & serve. If he’s leading in the wrong way, she’ll rebel.
Being as flexible as monogamy is, a bicycle built for 2 that will still stay upright if ridden backwards so long as u keep your speed up. If a 2nd wife is a negative but a 2nd husband is a positive, then she’s the master, & he’s the servant in the relationship. “No one can serve two masters”, but a master can be served by many servants.
By contrast, the tricycle is more stable than the bicycle at slower speeds & can carry more weight, but the single steering wheel has to be in the front. W 9 children, we have a lot of weight to carry, & we now have a chance to ‘slow down’ and not fall over. Further, more weight can be added to the other wheel so the other can be worked on while moving.
I was quickly losing hope of helping S help herself. She denied her issues. She thought she was normal. She continually sought greater reclusion for herself & the entire family. Oilfield work is very mobile, & we often lived in small towns w the work itself where cell phone signals fear to tread. The sexual fantasies that we indulge on Tumblr was in the back of my mind, but, like you, S’ issues were more important. I’m a big strong man, leader, father, & fixer, but I had to admit my inability to fix myself w God & my inability to fix S. God could fix her, but she had to admit that she needed fixing. In the meantime, she also needed to face her fears & deal w day-to-day life of a still growing family. I kept being a stronger leader & fulfill my role as husband/father. S was less rebellious against the idea of a 2nd wife but still the servant role was being ignored, & the children were suffering.
2012 made this suffering strikingly obvious, even to S. She birthed babies 8 & 9 (identical twins) over a month premature. One was born healthy. The other was born dead. It was an eye-opening moment for her. She had been continuously neglecting her health, diet, & needs while pregnant resulting in this unhappy circumstance. CPS was called in, & we had psyche evals. Their case was based on the ‘abusive husband’ scenario, but the results of the eval were just the opposite. Nearly every child was afraid of M, my oldest daughter who was acting like a surrogate mom since S had abdicated. At Sam’s Club, sample servers regularly mistook M, my 16 yr old daughter, for my wife & S, my 38 yr old wife, for my daughter. I met D that December. I made her aware that my house needed new daily manager since it wasn’t being properly managed. D didn’t truly understand what I said or meant. S argued mildly at D’s inclusion but accepted it as inevitable by this point. D moved in. Progress was delayed as D got her bearings & attempted to give S more credit than she deserved, but D quickly realized that S was not managing anything.
D came in fighting tooth & nail in instill discipline & respect. They acted that way around me since I expected it & have consistently enforced it. As soon as I leave the room, S was ignored by the kids who did whatever they wanted & were ignored by S who let them. D, however, was a new mother & was not going to ignore them or be ignored. D is currently in charge of the 3 teenagers.
One important tool in that fight is the ‘personal behavior / chore chart’ system started in April 2013. Every child age 6+ is in it. It covers personal behavior (necessary for privilege), school assignments (we homeschool), & assigned chores for pay (if any). This chart system is used to teach law vs grace, effort & reward, laziness & consequences, etc. It has also been continuing to point out various character flaws in both the children & the mothers. Sabotages can go both ways to keep each other in check. The system fails if there’s no honesty, accountability, or consequences. Without an honest chart, I can’t make a good evaluation on Sunday’s ‘court’ time. Without enforcement of the consequences, the decisions made at court are irrelevant. S will ‘rubber stamp’ charts, grant privilege on no-privilege weeks, deny privilege on privilege weeks in retaliation, etc.
Thus the first serious step was to get the children out of the picture so they could be well-handled whether S ever changed or not. D is doing that.
Next, give everyone a sense of law & order w clear rules & both consequences & rewards. Chart system does that. D is handling it.
Third, strike the contrast between proper mothering & maternal behavior vs S’ pretense of normalcy. D is the striking contrast. Rough around the edges, D much more closely resembles Prov 31 in the wats that count than S even attempts to.
As I said, the chart was for both law & grace. It goes both ways. If child demands law, they get law. If child gives grace, they get grace. There can be no grace if law is unenforced. Grace w no law is merely lawlessness. The consequences of broken law need to be felt in the imagination (guilt) for grace to have any value. Thus grace erases the mistake they admit & repent of but has no place for mistakes they deny or fail to acknowledge.
@ 40 years old this August, S still denies mistakes, refuses to accept wrong actions as mistakes & refuses to admit her own involvement in the results. D has been handling the children & being a ‘tattle tale’ on S to me, but there is no direct oversight of S by D for obvious reasons. D will confront S when when her patience has run out, but any serious confrontation of S is left to me. Each are different & need different handling methods. D’s methods are more blunt & often less effective on S.
3) “I feel for both women. I hope things will smooth out and you will be able to have a harmonious family unit soon.”
S has been sidelined as a less critical piece of daily family life than she was or should be. Most of our disharmony is the normal disharmonies of children being children or outside family dragging us into ‘not our business’. (D’s brother violated his parole & is going back to prison.)
S lives & goes through the motions of being alive, but it’s up to her to actually live & seek the Source of Life. Baby #9 (10?) is now 6 months old & is her main focus.
4) “I have more questions about god and the bible. But, after reading about S my natural desire to see all people happy has redirected my questions.”
As u can see, I don’t see life & Scripture separated from each other. While I don’t assume that u value or understand what I do, we live in the totality of God & the Bible. Think of God like being the favorite Grandpa Who walks around the house giving advice when asked for w His sharp mind & warm face. He helps everyone deal w their issues as the need arises, but no one expects Him to do anything for u. He tells u how to do it better than ever without ever actually picking up a tool. He lets u fail until u succeed, then we give Him the praise because we couldn’t have done it alone. He’s the ultimate role model & mentor. Everyone loves Grandpa, and life would be empty & lonely without Him. I hope u had a grandpa like that in your life.
Wow! U certainly said a mouthful. I’ll answer as best as I can.
1) “I lost faith in god and don’t believe anyone truly follows the bible. As they all pick and choose what they want and disregard the rest.”
I totally agree w you. That’s how this entire thing got started. My 1st wife (S) kept giving me the ‘party line’ that we’d both grown up hearing, but I kept asking her to prove that from Scripture. She didn’t know and neither did I. So I read it through in 2006 from cover to cover w a few references to truly understand what it said. I found that some things we were told were right; some were wrong; & some were ‘safe’ but not the whole truth. Once I read it for myself, I stopped being religious & started simply being a Christian: in relationship w just God & not kowtowing to any person or religious group. On my personal FB, I posted a comment just last Sunday that 90% of the churches in America are doing it wrong. Sadly, this was predicted in Scripture for this point in history. Paul mentions in letters to both Timothy & Thessalonica that before the AntiChrist is revealed, there was going to be a great apostasy or falling away of God’s people from the truth. They use the Bible to justify their behavior, but they cannot truly say that Scripture directs their actions.
2) “Do your wives play together alone?”
No. There is a schism between them that prevents sexual play. S (1st wife) has been emotionally disconnected from me & our children (currently 9) for some time. She has severely violated the trust by her lack of integrity & duplicity. None of it is sexual in nature, but it’s been very hard for D (2nd wife) to build a relationship w her even to the point of friendship when u can’t trust that anything she says is the truth. D is bi, but S is preventing friendship, let alone intimacy.
That being said. I have nothing against them playing together without me though others in my same boat could.
3) “How did you find your 2nd wife?”
I found her ‘on the discount shelf in 7-11’. Ha! Ha! That’s only 1/2 true. I did meet her at 7-11, but she was the new assistant manager. I’m gregarious by nature & talk to cashiers everywhere. I love a good conversation. I stopped at this particular 7-11 on my way home from work often. This was her first night at that store. I was riding my motorcycle home after 48+ hrs @ work on Dec 26, 2012. It was already dark & cold. That was the last available stop for fuel & coffee before I rode 50 miles home. D was concerned about me. We chatted while I got warm & drank my coffee. After 45 minutes or so, I needed to go so she gave me her number, concerned that I’d freeze on the way. She texted me before I got home. I replied when I arrived. We texted extensively for the next 2 weeks. She met S & 4 of the kids that Saturday. I saw her ~6 times before she moved in & married me on Jan 10, 2013. I was 100% honest w both about what was going on & where I would like it to lead. It was not Ds first marriage or attempt at poly.
4) “How do the relatives of you and wives feel?”
S’s family has almost completely cut her off. Only her sister even talks to her anymore after it was announced. They are quite religious, & this is ‘the worst thing ever’.
D’s family has never been close or comforting to her. She was a frequent run away & rebel child. She was basically rejected by her mother in favoritism of her brothers. So the negativity has been old hat, typical, & common. They acted the same when announced her lesbianism as a teen or her bi status as an adult.
I have been on the outs w my family for any number of reasons for many years, most of which I don’t know why. I make one comment on FB, & 2 or 3 block me without even an explanation. Of my 4 siblings, I haven’t spoken w my oldest sister since 2005 at Dad’s funeral. My youngest sister cut me off when she joined her new church & uninvited me from her wedding. My middle sister rarely sends me an eMail & takes nearly a month to respond if I send her a message. My brother messages me on FB once in 2010. I call my mom annually on her birthday, but that’s about it. A few cousins & a nephew announced disagreement when this was revealed, but the conversations were brief & returned to familiar silence.
5) “Or were you all raised in polygamy?”
Most definitely not. S & I were reared in the ultra-conservative Church of Christ. I grew up in Indiana; she in Colorado. We met at college in Florida. My middle sister went to church w her family & several other kids at school that year. She & her husband were alumni from several years prior. In her letter, she named all the kids from her church that were there that year & said that they were likely to make ‘good friends or something more’. S was in that list.
Fast forward to 2006 & we had the conversation I related above. I was convinced from my Bible study that polygyny was ok. S didn’t study it, but we talked about both the verses & her feelings about it for the next 6+ years until I met D & put action to those words.
D was raised Catholic / Baptist. She has a poly great-uncle in Mexico. Being a rebellious child, she experimented w everything mostly just to get a rise out of her mother (along w a beating). Her first husband was another attempt at running away: from Mom’s frying pan to his fiery Marine temper. After numerous hospitalization including burying her closest attempt at motherhood & waking up in the morgue, she finally listened to his rantings of ‘get out of my house’ w seriousness & left him. Divorce papers almost got to her mother’s house before she did.
Her life was in serious shambles & got worse for the next 7 years. I found out later that she was planning a suicide party on New Year’s Eve 2012. Her Christmas prayer was to find someone who loved her. I met her the next day. It was nearly love at first sight. She felt that I loved her. My kids needed her. 18 months later she’s still here.
Female resistance isn’t so unusual when u realize that such is about power. Women are much better manipulators of men than men are of women. As such, in the workplace, we are about equal as both men & women seek to manipulate men. At home, women subordinate their husbands & exert dominance over them through their fears & stated needs.
Men want to satisfy their wife’s needs & assuage their fear & thus act in a man-think way without consideration of woman-think. Man-think at feeling out of control is to take control & be in charge. Woman-think of being out of control is a lack of trust in her husband & the fear that he’s not in charge. So when she says that she feels their relationship or some aspect of it is ‘out of control’, the man responds by stepping back & giving her that aspect of their relationship. He thinks that will help her, but, instead, it confirms her worst fears: he isn’t worthy of her respect. Most of her fears are signals that HE needs to step up & be the strong man, the leader, communicate confidence, & protect her from the evil she’s afraid of.
As one aspect after another gets relegated to her to take care of, she asks the serious question: “What do I need u for? I’m working enough to support the kids. I’m making all the decisions. I’m aware of everything that’s going on. I’m doing all the cooking, cleaning, caregiving, etc. All u are is a warm vibrator that farts & burps.”
In order for the wife to submit to her husband, he needs to step up & be worthy of her respect & have the vision of leadership that inspires her to follow him. She’s to be a help-meet. How can she help when he doesn’t know where he’s going? Such a leader inspires confidence & trust, esp. when he maintains a high ethical standard of integrity & compassion. If he’s the master of his house w a joyful wife then she’s not seeing another wife as competition to be a fellow master of the one husband-servant but as a fellow servant to their one husband-master. “No man can serve two masters.” But one master can be served by multiple servants.
This goes again our ingrained & worldly viewpoint to look out for #1, serve no one, slavery is bad, etc. Serving children is almost expected, but even that is under fire as more & more opportunities allow others to be paid to serve them at younger & younger ages. Daycare from birth to 5. School from 5-18 w camp all summer. College from 18-22+. You can read children w little to no interaction throughout their life. No sacrifice or service necessary. Just sell your productive years to your boss still call it ‘parenting’. Jesus’ example of “servant leadership” works, but it’s not acceptable in public anymore.
The harem picture is pure fantasy. Such a situation could be witnessed but having them all as wives would be nearly impossible even for billionaires. The problem is not a matter of money but on relationship.
“Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.”
Such collections aren’t based on love but on selfishness, not on a desire to use properly but on the desire to possess. This is true of anything that is collected to the extreme. MOF, this is often true of the extremely wealthy.
“How much is enough?”
“Just $1 more.”
They are driven by fear, by competition, by personal pleasure, etc. That’s not always a bad thing, but it is when it comes to women. These aren’t merely digital pictures that can languish untouched for years after you took possession or shoes left untouched in the back of the closet. These are people: flesh & blood people w needs, wants, feelings, etc. Women & girls are NOT tissues to be used & discarded. They are to be treasured & honored & loved as each individual ought to be. Love is doing what is best. That could mean sex or no sex. It could mean 30-minutes of cuddling or all-night, or none at all.
The current marriage/divorce laws are skewed to encourage non-married relationships. The legal consent to heterosexual relations continues to rise in state after state while homosexual relations can be legally consented at very young ages. California is a classic example. Boys age 14 can have homosexual relations w each other, but he has to be 16 to consent to relations w a girl, but, even if she gets pregnant, they can’t marry until they’re 18. Divorce? Easy-peezy. If CA won’t grant it, Las Vegas isn’t far away.
As for property protection, that’s actually been available for millennia: pre-nuptial agreement. Biblically, signing the pre-nup was the marriage: betrothed & legally binding. The party where the guests came & celebrated the union by waiting for them to engage in their first intercourse was the wedding feast (Parable of Ten Virgins). Today, the states have a ‘default’ pre-nup that goes into effect at the divorce filing. However, if u file your mutually signed pre-nup, all those laws get thrown out.
* No divorce allowed unless she’s w another man or can file for any reason?
* Allow him to have another wife / significant other or her to have a boyfriend on the side?
* She gets $10 or $10,000 flat alimony or $x/yr per child?
* Whoever files abandons / gets child custody?
It’s all up to that pre-nup contract. Remember the film “Liar, Liar”? It was entirely based on showing the contract to be void. Once voided, state law applied, until then the pre-nup overruled everything. Since it’s a contract, protected by the Constitution under right to contract, there’s little the court can do against it unless they want to start a Supreme Court fight which they don’t want to since that would affect all contracts including government & big businesses.
I’m glad u asked. The traditional answer to this question is “No”. If someone strongly believed that, I would not attempt to argue otherwise. If the man believed that, he would interpret such actions as sexual immorality & consider it as grounds for divorce. If a wife believed that, I would dissuade her husband from forcing anything because it would violate her conscience & cause her to act not in faith & thus sin in her heart or merely act without heart out of submission & obedience which is unsatisfying.
However, my personal answer is “Yes”. Relations between women & wives alone or w their husband is acceptable. I base this on 3 observations:
1) There is NO verse in the Old Testament that even makes the vaguest reference to lesbianism. The go-to verse is Leviticus 18:22
“You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.”
The you subject is a masculine you. The word for male is gender specific. The word for female is gender specific. In other words, it’s an abomination for a male to lie (carnally) w another male like men do w women. This outlaws any and all male homosexual contact. The ‘traditional’ explanation tries to ‘reinterpret’ this verse to be a blanket verse against all homosexual contact including female-female. They attempt to genericize one or more male reference to be gender-neutral, but that would make it immoral for a male to lie w a female & thus outlaw marriage also. In order to regulate female sexuality, the law was either written addressing the male who was responsible for the woman’s immorality such as lying w a married woman. Or her misbehavior is addressed directly.
“And you shall not lie with any animal and so make yourself unclean with it, neither shall any woman give herself to an animal to lie with it: it is perversion.”
Note that vs 22 is on male homosexuality. Vs 23 is on male or female bestiality. But no reference is even vaguely made to female homosexuality or female bisexuality.
Further reading in the OT & numerous references in the NT all support that same anti-male homosexuality stance.
2) The only verse to reference female homosexuality is…
“For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.”
Like the passage in Lev 18, there’s no getting around the language of vs 27 in reference to male-male sexual relations… Even the acts are shameful thus bisexual men are just as guilty as complete homosexuals.
However, vs 26 references lesbianism, but it makes a distinction. The key word is “exchanged”. To exchange requires u to give up something to hold onto something else. The ‘natural desire’ references Gen 3 where a woman’s natural desire is for her husband. Thus the unnatural desire would be for another woman instead. Many would stop there & think the discussion is closed since a woman desiring a woman is ‘unnatural’. But, it does NOT call acts between women shameful. Nor does it address women who do not exchange male for female. A bisexual woman does not reject men but maintains her embrace of them.
In the lesbian community, there are varying degrees:
lipstick lesbians - enjoy affection w women but usually only has sex w men. Ok.
Femme lesbians - the female part of a lesbian couple. If they are exclusively lesbian, that’s not good. If they are bisexual &/or seeking a husband, could be good.
Butch lesbian - rejects / hates men, acts like a man, dresses like a man, dominates her femme like a man, etc. Not good.
3) Sex & marriage is a reflection of our relationship w God in the Spirit (Eph 5). As a Christian I am part of the Church, the Bride of Christ. Thus each one is engaged to be married to Him on the last day.
Ephesians 5:30 “because WE are members of his body.”
2 Corinthians 11:2
“For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ.”
In this sense, I am spiritually an engaged bride to my Husband & my wives, as a fellow believers, are also engaged brides to our mutual Husband. Thus, Jesus is engaged to marry billions of brides making Him the ultimate polygynist (see the Parable of the Ten Virgin) but also when I physically unite w my wives we are fellow spiritual brides uniting w each other & thus engaging in spiritual lesbianism. Our ultimate desire is for our spiritual Husband, but for now we satiate the flesh w each other.
A spiritual husband is any god or idol which takes us from our rightful Husband. In the OT, God makes more references to spiritual adultery w idols than there are references to physical marriage in the rest of Scripture.
So, while I wouldn’t argue w someone who is deadset on their anti-female contact view, it’s overly restrictive, but their right to deny themselves. As they grow in wisdom & open their heart to the Word, God will speak to them if & when they are ready to receive it.
As the literature referenced below, written throughout the early to mid-20th-century tells us, your man is one cold meal short of leaving you. Read the hilariously old tips for keeping your man happy in and out of bed. However, some tips still ring true today. How times haven’t changed much.
1. Don’t Talk
Refer to the first four commandments on “How to be a Good Wife” in Edward Podolsky’s 1943 book Sex Today in Wedded Life:
Be a good listener. Let him tell you his troubles; yours will seem trivial in comparison.
Remember your most important job is to build up and maintain his ego (which gets bruised plenty in business). Morale is a woman’s business.
Let him relax before dinner. Discuss family problems after the inner man has been satisfied.
In his 1951 book, Sex Satisfaction and Happy Marriage, Reverend Alfred Henry Tyrer has more to add to that. Asking for things is “nagging”:
I verily believe that the happiness of homes is destroyed more frequently by the habit of nagging than by any other one. A man may stand that sort of thing (nagging) for a long time, but the chances are against his standing it permanently. If he needs peace to make life bearable, he will have to look for it elsewhere than in his own house. And it is quite likely that he will look.
2. Bad Cooking Will Drive Your Man to Seedy Saloons
Reverend Tyrer states further:
A social service meeting, an afternoon tea, a matinee, a what-not, is no excuse for there being no dinner ready when a husband comes home from a hard day’s work.
Housekeeping accomplishments and cooking ability are, of course, positive essentials in any true home, and every wife should take a reasonable pride in her skill. Happiness does not flourish in an atmosphere of dyspepsia.
3. Be the Hot Steak, Not the Pork Chop
Speaking of cooking, Reverend Tyrer has a metaphor for you.
Picture a woman preparing a fine meal for her husband. “She remembered his choice of meat and was careful to get an extra-fine cut…her best cutlery and dishes and finest linen are all in evidence, and a little colorful decoration has been tastefully displayed….and as he comes into the house she greets him with a smile of welcome and a touch of manifest love.”
But say that same wife “is constantly setting him down to indigestible meals, cold and unappetizing, with nothing properly cooked, set out on a kitchen table with a dirty cloth, she need not be surprised if her husband frequently telephones from the office that business will prevent him from being home for dinner.”
4. Don’t Be a Sexual Vampire or a Frigid Franny
tells us in his book Woman, Her Sex and Love Life in 1927 warns us of the lures of women becoming “sexual vampires”, sucking the life force right out of your husband:
Just as the vampire sucks the blood of its victims in their sleep while they are alive, so does the woman vampire suck the life and exhaust the vitality of her male partner—or “victim.”
Now, if you are one of those frigid or sexually anesthetic women, don’t be in a hurry to inform your husband about it. To the man it makes no difference in the pleasurableness of the act whether you are frigid or not unless he knows that you are frigid. And he won’t know unless you tell him, and what he doesn’t know won’t hurt him. Heed this advice. It has saved thousands of women from trouble.
5. Pink Panties are a Must
That the underwear should be spotlessly clean goes without saying, but every woman should wear the best quality underwear that she can afford. And the color should be preferably pink. And lace and ruffles, I am sorry to say, add to the attractiveness of underwear, and are liked by the average man.
6. Let Him Have Some Fun Now and Then
Dr. Robinson says that ultimately, a wife will react to infidelity as her heart dictates:
But in case of an occasional lapse on the part of the husband—there a bit of advice may prove acceptable. And my advice would be: forgive and forget. Or still better—make believe that you know nothing. An occasional lapse from the straight path does not mean that he has ceased to love you. He may love you as much; he may love you a good deal more.
7. Your Husband is the Boss of You
It is fitting to close with the most opposed belief by the women’s movement written by renowned eugenicist Professor B.G. Jefferis, in his 1921 book Searchlights on Health, The Science of Eugenics:
The Number One Rule. Reverence Your Husband.—He sustains by God’s order a position of dignity as head of a family, head of the woman. Any breaking down of this order indicates a mistake in the union, or a digression from duty.
While many people get a special thrill photographing or making videos of themselves naked &/or inflagrante delecto then posting it on Tumblr, we do not.
1) Scripturally, the sexual union is between a man & his wife (wives). It’s not supposed to be a public spectacle for the amusement of strangers.
2) The pics & vids we have taken of ourselves were in private & under the trust that it would remain private. I intend to have a long, happy life ahead w these women. I will do nothing that would violate their trust in my confidence whether its ‘significant’ to others or not. Nothing told to me in secret or done in secret will be revealed publicly.
3) That doesn’t prevent me from offering advice or suggestions based on my experiences (or theirs) on various aspects of marriage, sexuality, polygyny, childbirth, etc. It’s one thing to discuss sex or specific acts in a general way since everyone is different, but it’s another matter if I were to give specific & personal details of her responses when we do those same acts.
4) Your mind & imagination is your #1 sex organ. Cultivate it. I probably won’t even post face shots of any of us, but that shouldn’t prevent u from developing a healthy imagination which u can use in your favor. Don’t let your own mind drag u down.